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RFC 164
Network Working Group J. F. Heafner
Request for Comments: 164 Rand
NIC 6778
MINUTES OF NETWORK WORKING GROUP MEETING
5/16 through 5/19/71
Preface
These notes are for reference and recall by those in attendance of
the NWG meetings. No attempt has been made toward completeness to
make this an understandable document for those not in attendance.
The notes are ordered chronologically. You may notice discrepancies
for particular schedules and tasks within the notes; the
discrepancies represent a revision of those schedules and tasks, thus
those dates given more recent in time are assumed to apply.
If you detect any gross errors in this report, please make
corrections via the accepted NIC procedures.
CONTENTS
I. SUNDAY EVENING SESSION (5/10/71) ................. 4
Introduction of Attendees ........................ 4
Site Status Reports .............................. 6
UCLA-Sigma 7 ................................... 6
UCLA-CCN ....................................... 6
UCSB ........................................... 7
SRI-ARC/NIC .................................... 7
SRI-AI ......................................... 7
Rand ........................................... 8
SDC ............................................ 8
Illinois-CAC ................................... 9
AMES ........................................... 9
CCA ............................................ 10
Case Western ................................... 10
Carnegie ....................................... 10
Harvard ........................................ 11
IBM Research ................................... 11
RADC ........................................... 11
MIT-DM and MULTICS ............................. 11
Lincoln ........................................ 12
BBN-NCC ........................................ 12
BBN/TENEX ...................................... 13
Mitre .......................................... 13
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
NBS ............................................ 14
ETAC ........................................... 14
Air Force Sites ................................ 14
Other Reports ..................................... 15
Dept. Comm., Canada ............................. 15
U. of Chicago ................................... 15
United Kingdom .................................. 15
Merit-Univ. Michigan ............................ 15
EDUCOM .......................................... 16
Raytheon ........................................ 16
Miscellaneous Topics .............................. 16
Graphics ........................................ 16
NCP Protocols ................................... 16
IMLAC Users Group ............................... 17
Official Document Formats ....................... 17
II. MONDAY MORNING SESSION (5/17/71) ................. 18
Network Information Center ....................... 18
Plans for NIC .................................. 18
Concepts & Recommendations for Documentation ... 18
TELNET ........................................... 19
III. MONDAY AFTERNOON SESSION (5/17/71) ............... 20
File Transfer Protocol (RFC #114) ................ 20
File Protocol Status Report ...................... 20
Miscellaneous Topics ............................. 20
Sockets ........................................ 20
Initial Connection Protocol .................... 21
Testing and Validation ......................... 21
IV. MONDAY EVENING SESSION (5/17/71) ................. 22
Operating Systems and Networks ................... 22
V. TUESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/18/71) ................ 24
DRS Working Group Meeting with Open Attendance ... 24
Data Management on Computer Networks ............. 24
Open Discussion on Data Management ............... 25
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
VI. TUESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/18/71) ................ 27
Terminal IMP ..................................... 27
Comments by Dr. Roberts .......................... 27
VII. WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/19/71) .............. 30
VIII. WEDNESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/19/71) .............. 31
Miscellaneous Issues ............................. 32
NWG Organization ................................. 32
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
I. SUNDAY EVENING SESSION (5/10/71)
INTRODUCTION OF ATTENDEES
Attendees introduced themselves and stated their affiliation. The
following list includes persons attending any of the sessions.
SITE NAME
AMES-ILLIAC John McConnell
AMES-67 Wayne Hathaway
ARPA Bruce Dolan
Cordell Green
Larry Roberts
BBN-NCC Will Crowther
Frank Hart
Robert Kahn
Alex McKenzie
Carnegie William Broadley
H. Van Zoeren
Case Patrick Foulk
CCA Richard Winter
Dept. Comm., Canada Terry Shepard
EDUCOM Henry Chauncey
John LeGates
Harvard R. Metcalfe
R. Sundberg
IBM Research Douglas McKay
Illinois-CAC Jack Bouknight
G. R. Grossman
Jim Madden
Lincoln Labs Richard Kalin
Joel Winett
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
Merit Al Cocanower
Brian S. Read
Merit-Univ. Mich. W. Scott Gerstenberger
MIT-DM Abhay Bhushan
Robert Fleischer
Albert Vezza
MIT-MULTICS J. C. R. Licklider
Mike Padlipsky
Mitre P. Karp
David Wood
Gene Raichelson
NBS G. Lindamood
T. N. Pyke
RADC Tom Lawrence
Bob Walker
Rand E. F. Harslem
J. F. Heafner
Raytheon T. O'Sullivan
SDC Robert Long
Arie Shoshani
SRI-ARC-NIC Charles Irby
John Melvin
R. W. Watson
Stony Brook Ralph Akkoyunlu
Art Bernstein
M. Inam Ul Haq
Richard Schantz
Univ. of Chicago R. Ashenhurst
UCLA-CCN Robert Braden
Steve Wolfe
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
UCLA-NMC Vint Cerf
Steve Crocker
Ari Ollikainen
John Postel
Rollin Weeks
UCSB Steve Lynch
Jim White
U. K. Eric Foxley
Univ. of London Peter Kirstein
Univ. of Mo. Dan Garigan
Univ. of Penna. Don Bernard
Univ. of Waterloo Don Cowan
SITE STATUS REPORTS
The following are summaries of reports given by affiliates of the
indicated sites.
UCLA-Sigma 7
o NCP (document 1) and user/server TELNET-like protocol have
been operational for three months.
o NCP (RFC #107) will be implemented by June 1.
o TELNET will be implemented within one month of official
specification.
o Have been and will continue to gather Network measurements.
o Will use UCSB file protocol in conjunction with above.
UCLA-CCN
o Local hardware has been connected to IMP.
o NCP (RFC #107) 70% complete.
o NCP (RFC #107) and NETRJS will be in production on JULY 1.
o Draft of NETCRT will be issued as RFC soon.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
o They can offer APL and are looking for interested users.
UCSB
o UCSB is a service center; 360/75 + 2314 storage.
o NCP (doc. 1) operational since mid-October 1970.
o NCP (RFC #107) operational and verified remotely.
o Services currently offered:
1) UCSB on-line system
2) RJE/RJ0
3) file system
4) local interfaces to net via F0RTRAN, PL/1, etc.
o Short range plans:
1) DRS implementation and experimental service
2) Interested in APL
3) Distributed data base experiment with SRI
SRI-ARC/NIC
o Now running NCP (doc. 1) in TENEX.
o NCP (RFC #107) will be installed when BBN releases it.
o They are currently examining and tuning TENEX parameters and
resolving interface difficulties.
o Stage 0 plans include initial work with West Coast sites to
gain experience, in using NIC, with respect to response
times, traffic loads. This will initially look like TENEX to
a user. Later, this will appear as a virtual machine to
remote users via a special NIC subsystem.
SRI-AI (reported by SRI-ARC personnel)
o Configuration includes PDP-10, TENEX, high-speed drum, robot.
o Probable Network connection in July.
o Software includes various theorem-proving mechanisms.
o Interested in working on the above over the Network.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
RAND
o Current configuration includes 360/65, 1800, IMP, video
graphics system.
o NCP (RFC #107) in 360/65 in daily production use in
conjunction with UCSB.
o Network Services Program (NSP) used in above features:
1) dynamic access to local files
2) access to video consoles
3) access to NCP
4) UCSB RJE/RJ0 protocol
5) UCLA NETRJS protocol (not operational)
6) Logger and TELNET-like protocols.
o PDP-10 to be connected into Net (directly to IMP) in about
two months -- will eventually run TENEX and be a service
center.
o Short range software development includes TELNET and DRS.
o Will continue to provide production support for Climate
Dynamics.
o Hardware is 360/65 connected to Honeywell 516 connected to
IMP.
o NCP (doc. 1) verified with Rand.
SDC
o 360/65 runs Adept timesharing, has 10 users, can do protocols
from a user process.
o NCP (RFC #107) will be coded by end of month.
o Logger fairly close to being checked out.
o Will have TELNET similar to RFC #137 by June 1; will offer it
by 20 August.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
o SDC not meant to be a general service; will allow 1 to 4
users; can use Adept to run a job.
o Experimentation plans include:
1) Voice I/O will use Net to communicate with speech
researchers (will respond to specific programs only)
2) Eventually graphic I/O
3) Man/machine synergism
4) Network data management
5) Network resources Notebook use and update.
ILLINOIS-CAC
o IMP works.
o Will use B5500 on campus since B6500 doesn't work.
o Will link to PDP-11 at Paoli for I4 software development --
not a general link for everyone.
AMES
o Probably will be two separate nodes ILLIAC and 360/67.
o Plans are in rumor stage.
o Plan TIP by end of summer to gain access to I4 simulator.
o Duplex 360/67 will be regular host node.
o Are looking for an NCP implementer.
o Will use other services; laser store and UCSB.
o Their general research includes an interest in Network
accounting and management.
o Will go onto Net as soon as possible to ILLINOIS.
o Will go on via TIP if it can support two nodes.
o Will define Net protocol for interactive graphics for I4.
o Plan to get on Net before I4 comes up.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
CCA
o CCA is responsible for data computer project.
o It is special purpose computer with large storage device.
o Data computer (PDP-10 and laser memory) should be viewed as
one black box.
o Will have two ports -- high-speed to I4 and low-speed to IMP.
o Data language and data will pass over ports. This will
include requests of files and portions of files, update,
manipulation, and transformation of data. It will not
include number crunching. Only access to the laser store
will be through the black box data computer.
o Hardware and communications are specified.
o Data computer services are beginning to be defined, (600
questionnaires were sent out, 10 responses were received).
With regard to services please call Dick Winter on (617)
491-3670. Dick wishes to hear from any potential user.
o Laser store is one trillion bits of on-line storage packaged
in 40 packs containing 10 mylar strips each. Strips are kept
in a carousel that can be rotated and mounted in 10 seconds.
Access to any track is a maximum of 400 ms.
o Laser will arrive at CCA in early 1972 and move in late '72.
Services to laser while located at CCA will be offered.
o CCA will send out plans (as feasible) as RFCs.
CASE WESTERN
o Hardware has been built (PDP-10) and starting to test it.
CARNEGIE
o Hardware includes PDP-10 240K 36-bit words, TTY, etc.
o Currently using DEC monitor.
o Will modify Harvard's version of the monitor.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
HARVARD
o Hardware includes PDP-10 with PDP-1 as graphics devices
handler.
o Hardware is up, talking back and forth.
o NCP (RFC #107) for PDP-10 will be completed by the end of the
month.
o PDP-10 has 48K 36-bit words; expect more core after July;
will then make NCP resident.
o Interested in file transfer, graphics, extensible languages,
experiments of distributed processes.
IBM RESEARCH
o IBM will buy an IMP, now negotiating it.
o They are designing new concept of Networking.
o They will become an active node with either a 67 or a 91.
The candidate 91 now has 300-400K.
RADC
o TIP is scheduled for delivery in October.
o They will provide local access to the SRI on-line system.
o They are interested in the July graphics meeting sponsored by
MIT. (Al Vezza)
MIT DM AND MULTICS
o GE-645 runs MULTICS: PDP-10 is for dynamic modeling of
graphics systems.
o NCP (RFC #107) on PDP-10 by end of week.
o Logger on PDP-10 available by 15 June.
o NCP (RFC #107) available on MULTICS by 11 June.
o Logger and TELNET available on MULTICS by first week of July.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
o They have been conducting file transfer experiments of
simplified ASCII transfers (not RFC #114).
o Interests include:
1) File transfers
2) E & S processing to IMLAC and ARDS formats
3) DRS service.
LINCOLN
o Three connections are planned.
o 360/67 has NCP, logger, TELNET, and some file transfer
protocol.
o TX-2 NCP is being developed. An interim NCP is working with
file transfer experiments, error detection and correction.
o They are experiencing hardware difficulties with the third
connection.
o 360/67 has been running NCP (doc. 1) and a TELNET-like
protocol since 1 March. UCLA and Rand have logged in. The
TELNET-like protocol supports ASCII and EBCDIC.
o NCP (RFC #107), TELNET, and logger will be operational on 67
by 1 July.
BBN-NCC
o NCC is responsible for maintaining the subnet and interfacing
with Honeywell and AT&T. They are planning a mechanism for
repair of the Net from their homes. The subnet has
experienced a 98% up time.
o An operational 316 version of the IMP has been hooked into
the Net since February. It is a production item at 1/2 cost
of 516; the IMP programs are identical.
o The 316 will be incorporated into the TIP. The multi-line
controller has been fabricated and is being debugged. A
common language for the TIP has been developed. TIP will be
delivered to NASA Ames on 1 August. The TIP will handle 64
lines up to 19.2K bits. BBN is still shaking down the kinds
of terminals that will be compatible (will be bit serial at
least). They are working with sites to determine terminal
requirements.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
o The resource notebook has been compiled and distributed.
Twelve of 19 sites are included in the notebook. SDC has
since reported. Stanford, SRI/AI, MIT/DM, UTAH, Carnegie,
LL/67 have not provided an entry. BBN again made a call for
responses and asked that each site stay up-to-date. A
comment was made regarding the Notebook that a mechanism is
needed for a) date of information, b) complaints of
information, c) reporting that advertised procedures do not
work.
o TIP delivery for the rest of the year is to the following
five sites: Ames, Mitre, Rome, ETAC in Washington, D.C., and
NBS.
o BBN has been studying performance of Network to learn ways to
improve it. An earlier Rand RFC reported a very low rate for
a total Network experiment -- Rand re-ran the experiment to
examine just the subnet performance and reported the subnet
rate to be in the 13-15K bit range for that test. MIT/DM has
reported a 5KB rate that will be examined further. BBN made
a general offer to the Net community to phone NCC in the
event that such measurements are taken and low data rates are
discovered.
o The BBN-Honeywell relationship is a straightforward
maintenance contract that includes P.M. and other problems
which arise. BBN stated that a 24-hour delay in service
would be unusually long. BBN would like to be kept informed
of views and opinions of the Honeywell service. BBN asks
that each site keep a maintenance log and copy it to Marty
Thrope at BBN.
BBN/TENEX (reported by BBN/NCC)
o BBN has a three-host IMP that includes NCC and two PDP-10s.
One 10 is for operational use, the other for experimentation.
o Software for the PDP-10 is TENEX.
o They are interested in getting involved in Network
experimentation.
MITRE
o Expect TIP delivery in September.
o Now using PDP-10 at BBN.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
o Will work on sample data management system using UCSB file
storage.
NBS
o Expect TIP delivery in December.
o Have selected PDP-11 as host; ready by December.
o Will build from the U. of Illinois operating system.
o Contemplating attaching their UNIVAC 1108 to Network.
o Will provide experimental access to Network for services:
1) measurement (performance)
2) graphics
3) personal communication
4) lab automation
5) support NBS with services appropriate
6) provide local hardcopy from PDP-11.
ETAC (Environmental Technical Application Center
o ETAC, located in the Washington area, is a branch of Global
Weather Service.
o Air Weather Service in Omaha, Nebraska, has seven 1108s
providing weather data; one will be connected to Net to
provide daily weather information to ETAC in Washington.
o ETAC has 1401 and 7040 in Washington to produce summaries for
longer range use; the 7040 may go on the Network.
AIR FORCE SITES (reported by ARPA)
o To export technology to other regions, two Air Force sites
(Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and Sacramento, California) will
temporarily join the ARPA Net to talk only to each other in
an operation to parallel their AUTODIN connection. If it
materializes, they will run for the first six months of '72
but probably won't continue. The motivation is to examine
the Net ideas for developing a wholly autonomous network in
three or four years.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
OTHER REPORTS
DEPT. COMM., CANADA
The Canadian Government wishes to optimize the use of all
computers in Canada.
They now have a banking network.
They are interested in a small net for universities.
Their largest problem is the size of the country in relation
to the sparseness of population.
U. OF CHICAGO
The University of Chicago has no current time schedule but
they have definite ideas about what they wish to accomplish
and they are seeking funding. They are applying to NSF to
support a local net on campus for lab automation. They have
good people and good equipment; the idea is to make it
coherent.
Their interest in the ARPA Network is to make shared software
available to their people and to a limited extent, make local
services available to other ARPA nodes. Their proposed host
is a PDP-11 to the mini computers and a second host (PDP-10)
as a big software engine to make data available to the mini
computers. The PDP-10 and PDP-11 will perhaps be linked
together. They also expect to get a TIP to provide remote
number crunching for their people.
UNITED KINGDOM
They have proposed three main machines and three terminal
nodes. They have in mind the 906A, approximately the 360/75
in power.
Their Post Office also has plans for a digital network in the
distant future.
MERIT
MERIT-UNIV. MICH.
Most of the bugs are out of the hardware.
Most of the software is written.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
Will have PDP-11s by the end of the summer that are capable
of transmission from one to another.
They will need and are now studying a TELNET-like protocol.
They are concerned with orderly communication of the two
processors; will later become concerned about process-process
communication.
EDUCOM
EDUCOM involves 100 major universities including most of
those now in the ARPA Network. For two years, they have been
running a network without wires. They assume the ARPA
Network can resolve the technical issues. They are looking
into marketing, contracts, documenting, etc., for running the
network. They have conducted a survey of 70 universities,
polled about their interests in the ARPA network: 60 of 70
are interested, 14 have money and are ready to become sites.
RAYTHEON
They will access the Net through the four Boston nodes.
Their interests include:
1) experiments of file transfer conversions.
2) indexing behavioral data to allow one to search an index
to see if the body of data of interest is within the
Network.
MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS
Graphics
Al Vezza will host a July meeting of a small group interested in
Network graphics. The price of admission is a sincere interest,
working background, and a prepared talk.
NCP Protocols
A new official document will replace document 1 and RFC #107;
implementation should not be held up because of the absence of this
new document.
The long range protocol committee chaired by Carnegie has been
disbanded.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
IMLAC Users Group
A quick survey was taken to determine which sites had or planned to
get an IMLAC. The plan is to form an IMLAC users group. The
following sites have or plan to get one: UCLA-S7, AMES-67, BBN,
SRI-ARC, Stanford, MIT-DM, MIT-MULTICS, Mitre, Case, Raytheon, U. of
Illinois.
Official Document Formats
The notion of a functional document was suggested, one of which would
be the document of official protocols with divisions of levels of
protocols.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
II. MONDAY MORNING SESSION (5/17/71)
NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER
Plans for NIC
Two activities are planned for this summer, off-line mail and on-line
access. The off-line service will continue after the on-line service
has come into being. Plans for getting on the Net via PDP-10
(replaced XDS-940) are almost complete. Response times for display
use are marginal.
The activities will be developed in stages. Stage 0 (June 18) NIC
will work with West Coast sites. This will involve providing NLS
facilities to allow people to create messages with initial delivery
as hardcopy, etc., with automatic generation of catalog entry and NIC
#. This system has been used locally for about a month. Stage 1
(August 2) NIC will be open to the Net community as a whole. Remote
users will come in directly to the on-line system and will have on-
line access to the catalog. Users will be trained either at SRI or
at their own sites before coming on. Four to eight concurrent
terminals will be supported. Stage 2 will include file transfer
protocol, on-line delivery of messages, remote editing of SRI-located
text. Prior to stage 0, a course will be offered (on June 16, 17)
for UCLA, Rand, SDC, UCSB, Ames, and RADC for the use of Stage 0.
The second group of users (after stage 0) will use NIC to do their
own site documentation.
Concepts & Recommendations for Documentation
The NIC # is a unique "name" for reference -- it has no other
meaning. Other numbering schema such as RFC numbers will eventually
go away. However, the subgroups, such as RFCs, will remain.
Appropriate set manipulators will be provided for assisting in
storage and retrieval.
The notion of functional documents was introduced (see RFC #115).
This is to be a document whose purpose is reasonably stable over
time. It can have subdocuments that change more frequently. A
current list of functional documents includes the NIC Catalog,
Directory of People, Resources Notebook, Protocols, and Site
Facilities (one for each site).
The mechanism of documentation is the responsibility of NIC; the
document contents are the responsibility of the author. There are
two cases of document revision; replace part of the document and
replace the entire document. In general, NIC would like the document
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
to be re-issued in its entirety with a new NIC # rather than issuing
errata. The functional documents are in looseleaf form, new pages
can be issued with the same number and a revision date.
Documents are reproduced and mailed to site liaisons 24-48 hours
after receipt. They are mailed to station agents on a weekly basis.
When mailing is handled directly by a site, a copy of the document
and a distribution list should also be sent to NIC. In the past, NIC
has supplied abstracts of documents for the catalog; NIC requests
that the authors include an abstract.
TELNET
The purpose of TELNET is to provide an immediate mechanism for
communication between keyboard terminals and serving processes, with
sufficient platform for later expansion and sophistication.
Tom O'Sullivan described TELNET as delineated in RFC #137. (Later in
these NWG meetings, Tom issued RFC #158, a new TELNET protocol.)
After the description, many issues and questions were raised, viz.,
can TELNET expect "recovery" from NCP, 128 vs. 256 character set, DLE
+ 7-bit code vs. high-order bit on, should protocol extend service
beyond what level consoles see, human factors, if information is
available at second level should it be passed to TELNET, TWX-like
service from NIC, mailbox protocol, etc.
In large part, these issues were raised but not resolved. It was
agreed that an RFC would be forthcoming (RFC #158, published later at
the meetings) followed by a functional document.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
III. MONDAY AFTERNOON SESSION (5/17/71)
FILE TRANSFER PROTOCOL (RFC #114)
The file transfer protocol (RFC #114) was described. See also RFC
#133 and RFC #141.
A simplified version of RFC #114 is being implemented by MIT/DM and
MIT/MULTICS in order to: 1) allow Dynamic Modeling access to MULTICS
file storage facility and 2) conduct a pilot project to gain
understanding of such protocols.
It was noted that RFC #114 was not simple enough to implement for
TIPs.
A group was formed to meet Wednesday morning for more discussion and
to exactly define the problems. The group would include
representatives from UCLA, UCSB, BBN, MIT, Rand, SRI, Harvard.
FILE PROTOCOL STATUS REPORT
UCSB described the status of RFC #122, A Simple Minded File System,
as an operational program; not a proposal. The basic concepts of the
file system were described; the design objective was to provide a
simple service quickly.
Currently one 2314 drive and pack is available. At most four drives
will be made available during the next year. It is also not clear
how long space will remain available. The storage is currently free.
Sites that will use the file system are Mitre, via BBN, UCLA, SRI,
and Raytheon via one of the Boston hosts.
MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS
Sockets
Socket name structure was briefly discussed. Relevant RFCs that were
mentioned were 1) RFC #129 whose purpose was to describe socket
structures enumerated at the February NWG meetings, and 2) RFC #147,
a recently proposed structure.
It was pointed out that there was a definite need to reduce the
socket length from 32 to 16 bits (a TIP storage problem) regardless
of its structure.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
A committee (Bob Metcalfe, Chairman with Abhay Bhushan and Joel
Winett) was appointed to produce a report in two weeks. The
committee is to address the following three issues:
1) is a socket structure needed
2) are more than 16 bits needed
3) what procedures are recommended for managing socket numbers.
Initial Connection Protocol
Race conditions and time out problems were elucidated. See RFC #123,
127, and 151.
A committee (chaired by Jon Postel and including Steve Wolfe, Eric
Harslem, and Arie Shoshani) was appointed to clean up the ICP
specification.
Testing and Validation
Sites wishing a remote partner to exchange NCP, TELNET, and logger
protocols can contact Rand. Rand was to collect status information
before and during these exercises. Information was to be forwarded
to Alex McKenzie to maintain and update status reports. (NOTE: A
later steering committee decision reflects on the way in which this
information is gathered, however. Rand is still available for
testing and validation.)
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
IV. MONDAY EVENING SESSION (5/17/71)
NOTE: Minutes of this session were kindly prepared by Bob Walker,
RADC.
OPERATING SYSTEMS AND NETWORKS
An attempt was made to study the ARPA Networks from an academic point
of view. An analogy was drawn on the basis that the ARPA Network
with its hosts and protocols is in a sense an "operating system" and
that a study of what makes a good operating system might help define
what makes a good ARPA Network.
Professor Art J. Bernstein of Stony Brook gave a presentation
abstracting what he considered to be the features of a flexible
operating system, the techniques for obtaining such; and when
appropriate, a discussion of those aspects where a difference in
techniques is required between dealing with an internal operating
system and dealing with a network.
The features of a flexible operating system were cited as: (1) a
flexible file structure, (2) a process hierarchy, and (3) an
interprocess communication facility (IPC). The terminology and
techniques described to obtain these three features were essentially
those developed for the MULTICS system.
A file structure capability was defined in terms of hierarchy of
directories, tree names, active file table, hold count, known file
table, and reference number.
A process hierarchy was discussed in terms of father-son relationship
and a father-node spawning a son node, creating an entry in the known
file table and assigning resources, all embodied in the SPAWN
primitive. Implementation of primitives as time independent was
stressed as being crucial to Network activity whereas not necessarily
so for an internal operating system. This lead into the concept
subcontracting process, where executive type functions are treated on
the same basis as user processes and as such are swappable. The
"link process" was then described as the interface mechanism between
two cooperating machines.
Interprocess communication was discussed in terms of channels, status
return and software interrupts. Appropriate primitives were defined
in detail as well as control type problems.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
The discussion then went to file handling and a specification of the
required primitives and thence to directory handling, specification
of related primitives, and the mechanics of directory handling,
specifically the outstanding operation entry table in the executive.
After a short recess, Bob Metcalfe gave a presentation from the ARPA
Network point of view with reference to various points of Professor
Bernstein's presentation. He noted the all pervasive tree structure
in Bernstein's presentation which appears to be most efficient to
internal operating systems (i.e., file system, process hierarchy,
etc.), but that the ARPA Network is not a tree structure but rather a
directed graph and that we should be careful not to impose tree
structure thinking on a directed graph type situation.
A number of questions and problem areas were elicited from the group
and listed on the blackboard:
1) How much does the operating system need to know about the
Network to get how much and vice versa?
2) Degree of transparency to the user?
3) "Optimal" resource allocation on the Network?
4) Autonomy versus centralization of control.
5) Resiliency.
The group discussed the need for a committee on Theory, how it should
function, how often should they meet, requirements for attendance,
etc. Dave Walden was mentioned as a possible organizer of a related
effort. Bob Metcalfe agreed to chair such a committee.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
V. TUESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/18/71)
DRS WORKING GROUP MEETING WITH OPEN ATTENDANCE
The purpose of the Data Reconfiguration Service meeting was to
resolve several lingering syntax and semantics issues and also to
receive comments and discuss the DRS with the entire Net community.
A brief overview of the DRS (see RFC #138) was given.
Remaining technical issues were resolved. An implementation
specification (replacing RFC #138) will be issued soon.
Initial implementers and users were polled for schedules and initial
experiments, results are shown below.
MIT No dates currently provided
U. of Ill. One or two months will be required to reformat from remote
formats to GOULD printer; also conversion of ARDS to
COMPUTEC strings.
UCSB Implementation of service in two months; will provide
system forms for remote TTY-like devices to access UCSB
on-line system.
MITRE Will compare performance of DRS to current software of
UCSB file experiment.
Rand implement service by September; initial use to specify
UCSB RJE/RJ0 and UCLA NETRJS formats for local users.
UCLA will have a compiler of forms within one month unless
serious difficulties arise.
DATA MANAGEMENT ON COMPUTER NETWORKS
SDC presented RFC #144 (see also RFC #146). Arie Shoshani presented
considerations and approaches that can be taken to achieve data
sharing. The considerations were common language, sharing of
existing data, evolutionary/revolutionary, future and use facility,
further development, implementation, and speed.
Approaches given were:
1) centralized
a) new data only
b) existing data
2) standardized data
3) integrated - common languages + interfaces
a) interface on different nodes
b) interface on service node
c) Data Reconfiguration Service
4) Unified
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
Dick Winter described the CCA approach. With several data computers
it becomes decentralized. All data computers have identical hardware
and software. Their objective is to dispose and restructure data
throughout the Net to optimize its use, i.e., relocate it close to
where it is used most heavily. For small files of wide interest
multiple copies can be maintained.
Dr. Roberts commented that with respect to the Network, no
distance/cost relationship exists if data is retrieved more than one
link away. The reason for putting files in several places is
reliability. He views the CCA approach as a Net-level language, thus
the unified approach. Also the natural language approach is suitable
as a research project but not suitable for data management for real
Net experiments.
CCA will present a proposal of data language at the next NWG meeting.
OPEN DISCUSSION ON DATA MANAGEMENT
This time period was initially allocated to the description of a
particular data management system being constructed by Mitre. It
became, in fact, an open discussion of general principles and
requirements for data management in the Network. The following were
among the most recurrent comments made.
1. DRS, file protocol, and data management should be examined in a
comprehensive way.
2. Important considerations of data management are to allow users to
define and restructure files logically, to move towards
transparency of the Net, and to move toward natural language.
3. A data management system should include functions for define,
access, manipulate, analyze, store of files. For example, the
data computer doesn't do formatting for output (like an RPG), it
can take a number of conditions and do conditional retrieval but
not RPG.
4. A data management system could be developed in stages where a)
the user explicitly moves data around the Net, b) the user
specifies the location but the access is integrated
automatically, c) location is maintained by the service.
5. An area should be defined between file handling and application
specific manipulation, and the area should be treated in a system
wide way.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
6. The super file (too large for any one individual to economically
own) never came up before but it is reasonable for the Net.
However it is just one use and there still will be need of many
10^9 files.
7. Privacy and security criteria should be applied at output rather
than input, which is an argument for having processing capability
at the location of the file.
8. Dr. Roberts indicated that the things that are important are what
things are on the Net, and what things are there to say. The
structure depends on what there is to say. Thus, one should
concentrate on the language and not the structure.
9. The data management system can be viewed as having two parts: 1)
the request, 2) the response and format. On the response side
(operand side) there is the taxonomy of data types and a template
of data followed by the data. A template is a string in which
data types or their descriptions are given with knowledge of
iteration, recursion, and data types. On the request (operator)
side, templates can be used to precisely specify the data to be
retrieved, assuming the structure of the file is already
specified.
10. The disposition and request are over structures to the response.
A small group was established to continue discussion on data
management.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
VI. TUESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/18/71)
TERMINAL IMP
The TIP can either be configured with 1) one host and two phone lines
or 2) three phone lines. Interfaces will provide 19.2KB to lowest
TTY speeds for each line. It can handle various terminals and
devices.
Normally the user speaks through the TIP but a primitive language
exists for talking to the TIP. Commands will exist to do the
particular protocols such as logger. Other commands will be present
for terminate on line feed, on character, now, on nth char., at end
of message, i.e., class of things to determine when message is sent.
There is another class to determine echoing. Device rates can be set
up. The serving site can also set up command such as capturing a
printer.
The TIP is currently trying to comply with all second and third level
protocols such as TELNET, file transfer (when defined).
Current plans are that the TIP cannot be reloaded through the
Network.
When new terminals are added, BBN will supply the TIP routines as
part of the service.
The TIP is intended to be used for RJE, terminal to process, and
later tape to tape. The TIP is intended to be a switch rather than
an operating system, under the assumption that power will reside in
terminals and service centers.
The program limits the bandwidth -- the sum of input and output is
100KB.
Potential for TIP delivery is about one every three weeks after
August. An upper figure for the TIP is $100K; the leasable terms are
$40K/yr. for three years plus a residual of $5K to own it, with a
two-year minimum. This was designed as an alternate method of
purchase.
"COMMENTS BY DR. ROBERTS"
The major cost benefit in the near term to getting on the Network
will be to use other physical systems to access new resources. It
will be a number of years before people enter the Network in order to
get rid of machines or to boost CPU usage.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
Regarding future Network growth, the University of California has
proposed to enter seven universities into the Network. We should
have the data and program sharing protocols fixed by that time. ETAC
will be working on the past 10 years weather in 10^11 store. NCAR
will be trading time (a 6600 and a 7600) with them and with ILLIAC;
use is restricted to weather work. January or February are probable
dates. This will be a third cross country connection through UTAH
perhaps (second is via Omaha weather). SC will be added in March or
April '72 for picture processing. England will join about February '
72. There are other plans to tie in Mexico, France, Israel,
Australia, Japan, Hawaii, Canada, etc. that could possibly all happen
in '72.
With regard to operating the Network, ARPA will not operate it
indefinitely. One plan is to have AT&T operate it since they can
legally sell the services; this will not come about soon. A
commercial organization (not a common carrier) can only operate the
Net under Government sponsorship. The current plan is to have BBN
run the Net as a service for the Government; this will be settled
within the coming year.
On the question of resources, setting up contracts with the service
people at each site to get one agent to ship money for various
subcontracts is a basic legal framework; for ARPA purposes it is
sufficient to have only one connection with each site.
On software development, the NCP progress has been extremely poor and
slow. The second iteration should have been defined by now from
experiences with the first. Towards the end of the year a new
protocol should be defined to last for a couple of years. Accounting
and billing protocol should also be defined. The NCP protocol is
getting to be a critical problem -- everyone should be complete and
consistent with the current protocol by July 1. Without it, there
will be serious problems of bringing new people onto the Net. For
example, the I4 and the laser store will be on the Net by March or
April of '72 with serious people wanting to use it (80% of its use
will be remote). By early '72 the Net must be a solid working
entity.
The question of profit making time-sharing companies on the Net
depends on whether or not AT&T takes over Net operations.
The capital arrangement for non-ARPA users to be on the Net is as
follows. A federal agency can donate $76K and get a TIP. Non-
federal agencies can pay $36K per year for the TIP for three years
plus the $5K residual to own it. ARPA will not decide casually to
allow non-federal agencies on.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
Regarding software support services, documentation will be upgraded
so all sites need not keep complete NIC documentation (except service
sites). In service centers it makes sense to add one or two
personnel to work on net service programs, work with users, etc., if
needed. Research centers will now have to concern themselves with
reliability, integrity, and problems of access.
Regarding the charging mechanism for the data computer, the 10^12
store cost one million, plus the cost of the PDP-10; thus 10^-4
cents/bit is reasonable for permanent storage. The rate for short
term storage strips (like two weeks) will be about the same. If
medium term storage is needed, a rate will be worked out. ARPA will
pay for this storage as backup for the sites.
The on-lineness of NIC is very important for initial use, but we must
have something better than TTY or CRT. The Net is cheaper than the
mails. (Electrostatic hard-copy devices were briefly mentioned).
Regarding new developments for AI symbolic processing, a plan hatched
by Alan Kay is to have lots of processor, lots of core and a big
switch with the capability of serving users in the Net. It is to
provide low cost core space (economics of processing are not known).
This may become associated with some experimental hardware
development facility since the desire is to be able to build new
architecture in a reasonable amount of time. It should be 10 to 100
times faster than the PDP-10 with earliest delivery in '73.
The speech effort is on the order of three million per year. The
concern now is to be able to tie together pieces at various sites for
comparative evaluation. The cross-testing can have an impact on the
researcher, but everybody must maintain compatible interfaces.
The climatology program is for predicting future long-range climate
of the World that comes about by perturbations. Various sites are
involved at various levels and it is hard to get these people to big
computers, to the data bases, and with each other. The Network
provides their total communication path with the I4. Direct and
effective use of the Network can be made without much more of an
investment; the Rand/UCSB work is a good example.
Heafner [Page 29]
RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
VII. WEDNESDAY MORNING SESSION (5/19/71)
This session began with discussion of file transfer protocol, led by
Abhay Bhusan. It was decided that the current file transfer protocol
should be parsed into two pieces -- a data transfer protocol front-
end that could be used for file transfer and other protocols, and the
file mechanism protocol. This problem was referred to the committee
which met for the remainder of the day to specify the data transfer
and file protocols. An RFC will be forth-coming, describing these
protocols.
The data management group met in parallel Wednesday. An RFC will be
forthcoming on their results.
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
VIII. WEDNESDAY EVENING SESSION (5/19/71)
The following information was summarized by Steve Crocker.
Committees Publication Date Approval Date
ICP - Postel 5/27 6/3
File Transfer - Bhusan 6/7 ---
Data Mgmnt. - McKay (7/21) ---
Socket Struc. - Metcalfe 6/22 ---
Telnet - O'Sullivan 5/19 6/10
Theory - Metcalfe --- ---
DRS - Heafner 6/1 ---
Graphics - Vezza (7/18) ---
The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on implementation
dates of NCP (RFC #107) and TELNET (RFC #158).
Service Hosts NCP + TELNET
CCN 7/1
LL/67 6/15
SRI/NIC (6/18)
MIT/MULTICS 7/1
BBN/10X ?
UCSB/75 Up
__Host__ NCP (RFC #107) TELNET (RFC #158)
UCLA/S7 6/1 6/15
Rand Up 6/15
Utah Up 6/15
U. of Ill. 7/1 7/1
Harvard ? ?
MIT/DM 5/25 6/25
The following inputs were provided to Steve Crocker on schedules for
current and pending work.
Users Tasks
Mitre data management in progress
Raytheon data sharing (August)
NBS PDP-11 via low-speed phone line
(July)
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RFC 164 Minutes of Network Working Group Meeting May 1971
BBN validation of resource notebook
(July 15)
UCLA data store, retrieval, reduction
(July 1)
DM/MULTICS/Harvard graphics, file transfer (July 1)
Ames/67 I4 simulator (July 15)
climate with UCSB (now)
climate with UCLA (July 1)
DRS (September)
SRI/NIC (August)
LL LISP (?)
LL TX2 speech data
TX2 data transfer (now)
TSP compiler (September)
U. of Ill. remote use (July 1)
link to Paoli (July 1)
Miscellaneous Issues
Alex McKenzie will generate the NCP functional document in one month
as an experiment.
Service documents to be sent to NIC include normal user documentation
you would use at the site plus special conventions (if any) for
remote users. Read RFC #115 and RFC #118.
NWG Organization
There is some concern over the size of the NWG. Its functions and
reorganization were discussed. Nothing definitive resulted
immediately. It was suggested by Steve Crocker that another NWG
meeting would be held in August.
Dr. Roberts and Steve Crocker created a steering committee to examine
this and other problems. More will be said about the steering
committee by Steve Crocker, at a later date.
[ This RFC was put into machine readable form for entry ]
[ into the online RFC archives by Nicholas Barnes 08/99 ]
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